Slurs on grace notes

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Slurs on grace notes

SimonNathan
Hi all, my name's Simon and I'm relatively new to writing Sibelius plugins, but enjoying the experience so far!

I have a quick question - how do I access and write properties of slurs on grace notes? If I have, for example, three grace notes, and I want to slur the first two together, how can I do that in ManuScript?

Cheers all!
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Re: Slurs on grace notes

Bob Zawalich
Hi Simon,

The quick answer is that you really can't. Try downloading the Line Between
Notes plugin and see what happens.

I will write up an explanation when I have more time, but for now I just
have to say you are unlikely to be able to do it, and at least part of the
reason is that grace notes all have the same rhythmic position as the note
they are attached to, and so a line between them has no duration.

I have tried various workarounds without success, and as I said, I will
write up what I think the problems are when I have a chance.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of SimonNathan
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Plugin-dev] Slurs on grace notes

Hi all, my name's Simon and I'm relatively new to writing Sibelius plugins,
but enjoying the experience so far!

I have a quick question - how do I access and write properties of slurs on
grace notes? If I have, for example, three grace notes, and I want to slur
the first two together, how can I do that in ManuScript?

Cheers all!




--
View this message in context:
http://sibelius-manuscript-plug-in-developers.3224780.n2.nabble.com/Slurs-on
-grace-notes-tp7573108.html
Sent from the Sibelius ManuScript plug-in developers mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Plugin-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
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Re: Slurs on grace notes

SimonNathan
Hi Bob,

Thanks so much for your reply. Presumably Sibelius is storing this information somewhere? Is what you're saying that this variable is just simply inaccessible via manuscript?

Things I've noticed (sorry if this is all very basic to you, just wanted to document my findings!).

tl;dr We can show that Sibelius is keeping track of some hidden variables. If it is only possible to access them via copy and paste, can we build a lookup table containing every reasonable slur somehow?

Test 1: create a note with two grace notes. Put a slur across these two grace notes. Cut the slur with ctrl+X. Then paste it back on. The slur goes to the correct place, regardless of which of the three notes are highlighted when you paste. 

This implies the slur has a property that says something like 'starts n grace notes before the big note'.

Test 2: Create a note with five grace notes. Put a slur across these the middle 3 of these grace notes. Delete the last grace note. The slur now links the first 3 grace notes. Delete the last grace note again. The slur now links the first two. Delete the last grace note again. The slur still links both remaining notes. Delete the last grace note again. The slur links the single grace note to the main note.

This implies the property takes the form of 'start m grace notes before the main note or on the first grace note if m>number of grace notes, and end either n grace notes before the main note on the first note after the slur starts, whichever is the later note', where m and n are variables that are stored as part of the slur object.

This property form can be confirmed with several other tests, so the question is, is it possible to harness it?

The obvious way is to copy and paste a slur that has the property set to the value you want, so I wonder if it's possible to create a score with every (reasonable) slur you could want, ship it with the plugin, and use it as a lookup table. This seems very ugly though - is this possible to do more elegantly?

Thanks so much, have been wondering about this for months!

Simon

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Bob Zawalich <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Simon,

The quick answer is that you really can't. Try downloading the Line Between
Notes plugin and see what happens.

I will write up an explanation when I have more time, but for now I just
have to say you are unlikely to be able to do it, and at least part of the
reason is that grace notes all have the same rhythmic position as the note
they are attached to, and so a line between them has no duration.

I have tried various workarounds without success, and as I said, I will
write up what I think the problems are when I have a chance.

bob

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of SimonNathan
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Plugin-dev] Slurs on grace notes

Hi all, my name's Simon and I'm relatively new to writing Sibelius plugins,
but enjoying the experience so far!

I have a quick question - how do I access and write properties of slurs on
grace notes? If I have, for example, three grace notes, and I want to slur
the first two together, how can I do that in ManuScript?

Cheers all!




--
View this message in context:
<a href="http://sibelius-manuscript-plug-in-developers.3224780.n2.nabble.com/Slurs-on -grace-notes-tp7573108.html" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://sibelius-manuscript-plug-in-developers.3224780.n2.nabble.com/Slurs-on
-grace-notes-tp7573108.html
Sent from the Sibelius ManuScript plug-in developers mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
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Re: Slurs on grace notes

Bob Zawalich

There are a lot of things Sibelius does that plugins have no access to. For years I  wheedled to get addition access for plugins, but I have no one to wheedle to anymore.

 

Cut and paste behaves differently than AddNote does. Slurs are magnetic and behave differently than other lines. I really don’t think you can reverse engineer it in the way you describe, but if you want to go there good luck with it.

 

If I needed to do this sort of thing I might consider trying to use copy and paste. You may be able to create a score that contains slurs across a number of grace notes that you could set up like a database, and copy from that score and paste into another score. That is the only way I can think of that would let you keep slur line objects; you cannot store them in a plugin file.

 

You could use ideas but plugins have no access to ideas.

 

The score as data base technique can be effective, pretty much as you describe. I often use it as an alternative to importing house styles since you can define a style by copying an object with that style. You can have a look at Scale Notehead Sizes or Colored Notehead Styles as examples of plugins that use scores as a repository that way.

 

In Sib 7 you can set up a score so it gets installed as a Manuscript Paper or you can have it be copied into the same folder as the plugin. You can have the user manually install it somewhere like the default scores folder. The plugins mentioned do some of that.

 

It will take some fiddling but I think copy/paste may be you best choice in this case. Non grace notes are not nearly as problematic.

 

bob

 

 

From: Simon Nathan [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 3:27 PM
To: [hidden email]; A mailing list for Sibelius plug-in developers
Subject: Re: [Plugin-dev] Slurs on grace notes

 

Hi Bob,

Thanks so much for your reply. Presumably Sibelius is storing this information somewhere? Is what you're saying that this variable is just simply inaccessible via manuscript?

Things I've noticed (sorry if this is all very basic to you, just wanted to document my findings!).

 

tl;dr We can show that Sibelius is keeping track of some hidden variables. If it is only possible to access them via copy and paste, can we build a lookup table containing every reasonable slur somehow?

 

Test 1: create a note with two grace notes. Put a slur across these two grace notes. Cut the slur with ctrl+X. Then paste it back on. The slur goes to the correct place, regardless of which of the three notes are highlighted when you paste. 

 

This implies the slur has a property that says something like 'starts n grace notes before the big note'.

 

Test 2: Create a note with five grace notes. Put a slur across these the middle 3 of these grace notes. Delete the last grace note. The slur now links the first 3 grace notes. Delete the last grace note again. The slur now links the first two. Delete the last grace note again. The slur still links both remaining notes. Delete the last grace note again. The slur links the single grace note to the main note.

 

This implies the property takes the form of 'start m grace notes before the main note or on the first grace note if m>number of grace notes, and end either n grace notes before the main note on the first note after the slur starts, whichever is the later note', where m and n are variables that are stored as part of the slur object.

 

This property form can be confirmed with several other tests, so the question is, is it possible to harness it?

 

The obvious way is to copy and paste a slur that has the property set to the value you want, so I wonder if it's possible to create a score with every (reasonable) slur you could want, ship it with the plugin, and use it as a lookup table. This seems very ugly though - is this possible to do more elegantly?

 

Thanks so much, have been wondering about this for months!

 

Simon

 

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Bob Zawalich <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Simon,

The quick answer is that you really can't. Try downloading the Line Between
Notes plugin and see what happens.

I will write up an explanation when I have more time, but for now I just
have to say you are unlikely to be able to do it, and at least part of the
reason is that grace notes all have the same rhythmic position as the note
they are attached to, and so a line between them has no duration.

I have tried various workarounds without success, and as I said, I will
write up what I think the problems are when I have a chance.

bob


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of SimonNathan
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Plugin-dev] Slurs on grace notes

Hi all, my name's Simon and I'm relatively new to writing Sibelius plugins,
but enjoying the experience so far!

I have a quick question - how do I access and write properties of slurs on
grace notes? If I have, for example, three grace notes, and I want to slur
the first two together, how can I do that in ManuScript?

Cheers all!




--
View this message in context:
http://sibelius-manuscript-plug-in-developers.3224780.n2.nabble.com/Slurs-on
-grace-notes-tp7573108.html

Sent from the Sibelius ManuScript plug-in developers mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
Plugin-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://avid-listsrv1.avid.com/mailman/listinfo/plugin-dev

_______________________________________________
Plugin-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://avid-listsrv1.avid.com/mailman/listinfo/plugin-dev

 


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[hidden email]
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Re: Slurs on grace notes

SimonNathan
Thank you so much Bob, that's really great to know. Thanks for the detailed and comprehensive reply!

Simon

On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 12:25 AM, Bob Zawalich <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are a lot of things Sibelius does that plugins have no access to. For years I  wheedled to get addition access for plugins, but I have no one to wheedle to anymore.

 

Cut and paste behaves differently than AddNote does. Slurs are magnetic and behave differently than other lines. I really don’t think you can reverse engineer it in the way you describe, but if you want to go there good luck with it.

 

If I needed to do this sort of thing I might consider trying to use copy and paste. You may be able to create a score that contains slurs across a number of grace notes that you could set up like a database, and copy from that score and paste into another score. That is the only way I can think of that would let you keep slur line objects; you cannot store them in a plugin file.

 

You could use ideas but plugins have no access to ideas.

 

The score as data base technique can be effective, pretty much as you describe. I often use it as an alternative to importing house styles since you can define a style by copying an object with that style. You can have a look at Scale Notehead Sizes or Colored Notehead Styles as examples of plugins that use scores as a repository that way.

 

In Sib 7 you can set up a score so it gets installed as a Manuscript Paper or you can have it be copied into the same folder as the plugin. You can have the user manually install it somewhere like the default scores folder. The plugins mentioned do some of that.

 

It will take some fiddling but I think copy/paste may be you best choice in this case. Non grace notes are not nearly as problematic.

 

bob

 

 

From: Simon Nathan [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 3:27 PM
To: [hidden email]; A mailing list for Sibelius plug-in developers
Subject: Re: [Plugin-dev] Slurs on grace notes

 

Hi Bob,

Thanks so much for your reply. Presumably Sibelius is storing this information somewhere? Is what you're saying that this variable is just simply inaccessible via manuscript?

Things I've noticed (sorry if this is all very basic to you, just wanted to document my findings!).

 

tl;dr We can show that Sibelius is keeping track of some hidden variables. If it is only possible to access them via copy and paste, can we build a lookup table containing every reasonable slur somehow?

 

Test 1: create a note with two grace notes. Put a slur across these two grace notes. Cut the slur with ctrl+X. Then paste it back on. The slur goes to the correct place, regardless of which of the three notes are highlighted when you paste. 

 

This implies the slur has a property that says something like 'starts n grace notes before the big note'.

 

Test 2: Create a note with five grace notes. Put a slur across these the middle 3 of these grace notes. Delete the last grace note. The slur now links the first 3 grace notes. Delete the last grace note again. The slur now links the first two. Delete the last grace note again. The slur still links both remaining notes. Delete the last grace note again. The slur links the single grace note to the main note.

 

This implies the property takes the form of 'start m grace notes before the main note or on the first grace note if m>number of grace notes, and end either n grace notes before the main note on the first note after the slur starts, whichever is the later note', where m and n are variables that are stored as part of the slur object.

 

This property form can be confirmed with several other tests, so the question is, is it possible to harness it?

 

The obvious way is to copy and paste a slur that has the property set to the value you want, so I wonder if it's possible to create a score with every (reasonable) slur you could want, ship it with the plugin, and use it as a lookup table. This seems very ugly though - is this possible to do more elegantly?

 

Thanks so much, have been wondering about this for months!

 

Simon

 

On Sat, Jan 30, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Bob Zawalich <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Simon,

The quick answer is that you really can't. Try downloading the Line Between
Notes plugin and see what happens.

I will write up an explanation when I have more time, but for now I just
have to say you are unlikely to be able to do it, and at least part of the
reason is that grace notes all have the same rhythmic position as the note
they are attached to, and so a line between them has no duration.

I have tried various workarounds without success, and as I said, I will
write up what I think the problems are when I have a chance.

bob


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of SimonNathan
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2016 6:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Plugin-dev] Slurs on grace notes

Hi all, my name's Simon and I'm relatively new to writing Sibelius plugins,
but enjoying the experience so far!

I have a quick question - how do I access and write properties of slurs on
grace notes? If I have, for example, three grace notes, and I want to slur
the first two together, how can I do that in ManuScript?

Cheers all!




--
View this message in context:
http://sibelius-manuscript-plug-in-developers.3224780.n2.nabble.com/Slurs-on
-grace-notes-tp7573108.html

Sent from the Sibelius ManuScript plug-in developers mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________
Plugin-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://avid-listsrv1.avid.com/mailman/listinfo/plugin-dev

_______________________________________________
Plugin-dev mailing list
[hidden email]
http://avid-listsrv1.avid.com/mailman/listinfo/plugin-dev

 



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